Grand Lifestyle: I think judges could be the very best role models society has. Do you agree?
David Popper: I agree. They can be. Unfortunately, we have some bad apples; that reflects on all judges. Today, the public does not look upon the judiciary with great favor.

GL: Let us dwell on some definitions. Honesty. What do you think honesty should be?
Popper: For a judge honesty is giving the people a fair hearing. Disregard personal feelings. It's not that difficult to be honest. You must know the case inside out. You owe it to both sides. You cannot be influenced by friendships. Never recuse yourself because the longer you are around the more people you are going to know. Simply commit yourself to ruling fairly.

GL: That leads us to Integrity.
Popper: Whatever your salary is as a judge, it has to be sufficient while you are on the bench. If it's not, get off. I had three children who went to college at the same time; I simply couldn't afford to stay anymore. I left and didn't have to worry about looking into a mirror. I went out and made sure I could earn enough as a lawyer to support the family.
It would be nice if you had all the money in the world and be a judge. But I didn't. After ten years on the bench I found out that I used up all my savings; I had to leave. I hope that's the same way with all the other judges. Unfortunately, we had Court Broom [judges were convicted of accepting bribes]; greed took over. That's wrong.

GL: How do you make sure you maintain impartiality at all times?
Popper: By just knowing the facts of the case and ruling as though you didn't know the parties.

GL: What if we double every judge's salary to support their economic independence and, in return, double the demand on the judges.
Popper: It wouldn't make him any smarter. But, if we double salaries a lot more people will be running for the job.

GL: You have been off the bench for some 21 years now. What changes have you seen in the justice system during the last 24 years?
Popper: Well, first of all the number of judges is so much greater now. Secondly, they changed the system and eliminated a lot of courts which are no longer there and I thought were important.
The civil court of records, it had jurisdiction up to $5,000, trained young lawyers; so when they came to circuit court they were ready to go. Now they call it the county court and small claims court. But everybody wants to be in circuit court.
They have rotation now which we didn't have. In this age of specialization they are trying to create a general judge. It seems to me that if you have a criminal case you certainly want a man who has the right background. But right now you can appoint somebody who has never even been in traffic court and who tries a first-degree murder. You could put a person in the probate division who has never handled an estate.
You could put people in trial court who have never tried a case and then they all go back and forth and shift from criminal to juvenile to somewhere else. What does that do? In three months a judge could be moving out of one division to some other area and he will say to hell, I can't be bothered with this case, I put it off and let the next guy have it.

GL: On the other side of the coin, there is a judge sitting in a given position for years and has established a rapport with attorneys who appear in that particular division of the court year in and year out. Isn't there a danger?
Popper: There is nothing wrong because a good lawyer who is appearing before the judge knows that judge's modus operandi and will plan accordingly.

GL: Are you saying the rotation system also clogs the court?
Popper: Absolutely.

GL: That's costly.
Popper: Costly? Time is costly. Forget the dollars. It's costly to the individual.

GL: Judge, what is cruel and unusual punishment?
Popper: It's a catch phrase used by those who believe it is improper to apply the laws and penalties mandated by our state and federal legislatures. What's cruel and unusual about applying the law to protect innocent victims? Basically, it's the theory of being more concerned about the criminal than the victim of crime. And that's garbage.

GL: How about prisoner perks? Do you think school children get fewer perks than prisoners? What about the soldiers in the foxhole? We are talking about prisoners who have television …
Popper: I think people worry more about it; at least the legislators worry more about the prisoners than the other people or anything else.

GL: What do you think of the legislature mandating sentencing guidelines?
Popper: The sentencing guidelines give maximums and minimums, but there must also be common sense input from the judge.

GL: But isn't there also a danger when you are given leeway to use your common sense and compassion to then also hand out favors?
Popper: I never handed out favors. I just think nothing is as important as common sense.

GL: So we should allow judges leeway.
Popper: In my mind, yes.

GL: Should judges be elected rather than appointed?
Popper: Most people today don't care. If you have a 30% voter turnout in the election that's coming up in September it will be a miracle. It used to be the people were very interested in their government but they don't care any more.
Most judges get on the bench by appointment before they run because they are filling a vacancy.
It used to be that the governor appointed a judge and he had to live with his choice, and if you go back and check, those appointments were good.
Now we go through committees. I think they are far more political than the gubernatorial appointment was.
As far as appointments go I think the governor should appoint judges without committees. We all know there is some politics involved. But so what. As long as he or she is good.

GL: By political you mean favors are exchanged?
Popper: Favors, or catering to minorities, or catering to something else. You can't give the job to someone who doesn't know what he is doing. That's all. In other words, I think we shouldn't have to look at a balance of women, men, black, white, whatever. You can't reach a balance in the court that way. You have to select people for intelligence and know what they are doing. As long as we have quality.
I don't care if they are all black, or all white, or all women; it doesn't matter as long as they abide by quality. And not because the governor thinks, my God, I got to do this and I got to do that.

GL: In the election process, how does a judge present himself or herself effectively to the public and convince or sell the public on himself or herself?
Popper: It's almost impossible. When I ran in 1968 the community was a lot smaller. I spoke to every senior citizen group. You lost 30 pounds but met everybody. You can't do it today. Too big. So what does it take? It takes money; and some people have all the money. They get enough signs up. Nobody will run against them because they get their name focused.
I don't know the influence of The Miami Herald because I don't know how many people read the editorial section for the recommendations.

GL: How do we hold a judge accountable to the taxpayer?
Popper: It's simple. You have an election. Vote him out if he doesn't do the job.

GL: Judges are judged by their peers. Do you think the peers' judgment is fair?
Popper: Not always. It could be a lawyer had a ruling against him. That's human. Some head of a large law firm could say to all members of the firm, hey, give me your votes.

GL: Come election time we see very little in the paper what judges do and don't do, what their record of accomplishment is.
Popper: That's for the newspapers to do. But they don't. And placing an ad is expensive. Where will the judges get the money from?

GL: Then how does the average voter get to decide, get to look at the record of the candidate?
Popper: That's a problem. There is nobody around. A few people control the condominium associations. Somebody else is controlled. You can have 40 people take control of the county and vote.

GL: Let's talk about the social status of the judge. Where I come from the teacher, clergy, judge are at the very top of the social ladder. That's it. They are looked up to. Respected.
Popper: Here the judiciary was very admired. When I was a judge we had 90 circuit court judges in the entire state of Florida. We carried a lot of weight. People listened.
Now you have that many judges in Miami-Dade County alone.

GL: Let's focus on how judges are rated. Is it fair?
Popper: No. The main thing is you shouldn't vote for a judge unless you have been before him. That's not always the case. There are so many lawyers who don't even know where the courthouse is.

GL: The problem is it takes just one mistake to ruin the entire profession. One bad judge and all judges are branded as bad. Doesn't that make it very difficult to protect the judge's authority?
Popper: We never had that problem. We were one of the outstanding circuits in the United States. We had a chief judge who told us you carry the same ticket I do. We all ran our own show except in case of a recusal and the chief judge assigned someone else. He also ordered our furniture.

GL: Is that a trend which continues to degrade the judicial system?
Popper: I think it is becoming more a misuse of We the People. There are all those TV shows and people playing judge. With rotation a lawyer could land before somebody else before the case is over. We need stability.

GL: It must diminish the ability of a judge to judge fairly if he jumps into a case in the middle of it.
Popper: It's difficult.

GL: It is today's big debate: Three strikes and you are out. What do you think of that?
Popper: I am not adverse to it. If they get into the habit, they must pay for it.

GL: Some people call it cruel punishment.
Popper: What about the person who had his property stolen? Isn't that cruel and unusual punishment? It's the victim who is suffering the cruel and unusual punishment.

GL: What makes the ideal judge?
Popper: Demeanor. Fairness. Common sense. Don't try to make yourself something you aren't. Don't demand a special thing because you are a judge. We are not entitled to anymore than anybody else.
Except in the courtroom where it should be "Your Honor." The respect in the courtroom or in chambers should be there. Whether you respect the person or not, you have to respect the robe. It's a position.

GL: Having a family — you have four children and five grandchildren — did it in any way affect your ability to do your job as a judge?
Popper: Absolutely not. I think it helped. It's what you do. You are going to see those kids in the morning and at night. You have to look them in the eyes. If you are doing something wrong how can you do it?

GL: What comes first in your priorities as a judge?
Popper: There are different priorities. You can talk about the job or your family. You could talk about the fact that an economic situation bothers you. You have to separate. Before you leave the house in the morning, it's your family. When you're in the courtroom it's the court. You can't compare the two.

GL: We are getting back to integrity and commitment to the job.
Popper: I never thought I'd be anything but a judge once I became one. I have a little clipping, "Message to Daddy." It talks about the little boy who says to his father when I grow up I want to be like you. Do I want to be a crook? How could I look at myself in the mirror if my son says I will be like you? I carry that card in my wallet.

GL: What about juvenile crime? What's wrong?
Popper: They may not sound it, they may not think it, but they are smart. Today's juveniles are smart enough to know they can do anything they want and not be tried as an adult. And they walk out. That's it.
There are young people who were arrested for attempted murder and got tried as juveniles. No big problem. They are clear and walk out. Breaking and entering, taking your property? It's jail. Next thing you know they're out on bond doing it again.

GL: So what you are saying is we shouldn't treat somebody who commits a crime on the basis of his age.
Popper: I think with any major crime we shouldn't.

GL: The Singapore flogging sentence.
Popper: I thought this might come up. I think if you visit a foreign country you have to live with the consequences. He's eighteen years old; he is not stupid. I don't think he should be treated differently because he is an American. In Singapore you can walk on the streets day or night. There is no crime. Why? Because they know what happens to them.

GL: Do you think this country could learn a few things from a country like Singapore? Sentences like this?
Popper: I think we have to establish some ground rules so people will pay attention. They don't pay attention. They don't care.
I have yet to see where anybody worries about the victim or, if the man is killed, the victim's wife and children.

GL: Then why do we follow what a few push for?
Popper: They scream louder than the majority.

GL: We are getting back to apathy then. Earlier you said 30% go to the polls.
Popper: We are pushing ourselves toward Sodom and Gomorrah.
Drugs. People will always have problems with drugs. Life. I believe that life starts at conception. Let's adopt. There are enough people who want to adopt. I don't think we have to have abortion.
We are destroying the family unit. In the newspaper they talk about such and such a person having children but they don't know if they're going to get married. What happens to the family unit?

GL: What is it that a judge with his authority and power can do to steer us back onto the right track.
Popper: I don't think a judge can do anything. That's the legislators' job or maybe the higher courts'. We are too permissive.
All the court can do is enforce what the legislature gives us.

GL: Perhaps judges should go out on a limb a little more and help prevent our drifting toward Sodom and Gomorrah.
Popper: That could be if the higher court decided. A judge has to follow what the law says. Like it or not. The day you can't follow it is the day you have to get off the bench.

GL: We are getting back to what we talked about earlier, the sentencing guidelines versus compassion and common sense.
Popper: It could a blend. Common sense is so important. You said compassion; I didn't say that. It could be stricter. If we rule by common sense only, forgetting the book, you will be backed up by the cases [precedent-setting court cases] 99 percent of the time. You cannot be afraid when you rule that some other court may reverse you.

GL: Do you think that judges today take the easy way out by just going by the rules and saying it's a job from nine till five?
Popper: I can't answer that. I am not there anymore.

GL: Temptation. As a judge you have an awesome power.
Popper: No question. A judge can take a life, take property, and put a person in jail.

GL: Or you can also put your sons into the finest schools.
Popper: Well, if you are a judge, and unless you have made a lot of money before, you are not going to put your children into the finest schools because you can't afford to.

GL: So that's a commitment you make before you go.
Popper: It was no problem for me. My children went to parochial school. They have nuns. It wasn't expensive.

GL: If you have the power to enact law all by yourself based on your experience on the bench where you saw life from many angles and being in private practice today, what law would you enact?
Popper: Revise the criminal laws.
At one time rape used to call for the death penalty. Now it's called "involuntary sexual battery" and they get out in five years.
Rape is as bad as any murder I have seen. It affects people more than anything else.
Look at all the graffiti; that's enough to make you sick. They destroy property. People paint over it. Pretty soon it's graffiti all over again. We've got to get tough.

GL: Chief Justice Rosemary Barkett of the Florida Supreme Court said, "Justice must be accessible to all, must be fair, and must be swift."
Do you think we are accomplishing that today?
Popper: No.

GL: In the very beginning I used the phrase role model. You think you were a good role model when you were on the bench?
Popper: I hope so. I tried to be. I also tried to be a role model for my children.

GL: Is there a difference between your being a role model for your children as father and a role model for the people of the community as judge?
Popper: Of course. If you are a judge, the community has to know by your action that you're fair and just.
At home, role model is how you get along with your wife. Role model is what you do with your children.
My children call me every week; and so do my grandchildren. I have to be a role model or they wouldn't do it. You're not going to be a role model by putting money into their hands and tell them speak to me next week when your allowance is due. That doesn't buy it. Love buys it.

GL: You are placing much value on the family and you are succeeding admirably well in maintaining the family unit. What about judges who don't?
Popper: I have my doubts. If they can't handle their own personal business, they can't handle the court.

GL: How can the media help the judge?
Popper: By not destroying a judge. All they want is stories. Maybe it sells papers. If the judge makes one mistake, he is crucified. I am not talking about criminal activity. Trying a case in the newspaper does not help.

GL: Based on your past experience having sat on the bench and being a practicing attorney today, let me toss a few buzzwords and see how you relate them to your experience. Satisfaction.
Popper: Well, I tell you, the best satisfaction you get is when you handle an adoption. You know you're taking care of a child. That's the best satisfaction.
When a case has been tried well regardless of the results, that's satisfaction. When two top lawyers do what they should do, that's satisfaction.

GL: Apathy.
Popper: People being there who really don't want to be there. Or people not taking their right to vote seriously.

GL: Do you think the apathy of the voters has anything to do with the quality of the judges?
Popper: Yes. The voters could get the information they want by requesting it from the newspapers.

GL: Ethics.
Popper: I am upset with the quality and presentation of some lawyers who don't have any ethics at all.
I did my job. And as long as you don't let those people get out of hand then you control it.

GL: Family.
Popper: When I'm looking at my own, one son is a lawyer in Orlando, the other is a lawyer in Houston; the youngest also lives in Houston and is an estate planner. Our daughter is a supervisor with Walt Disney World in Orlando. Family means a lot. What means a lot is not just their being close to me and my wife but being in contact with each other. My children are always in touch with each other. Family means to me being close-knit. Family means to me the basis of this country because the family unit created this country. I think we are destroying the family. The papers are destroying it with big write-ups about such and such a person having a child out of wedlock. It used to be a taboo for being illegitimate. Now it's a sign of honor and they give them a merit badge. There is no reason today for kids to get married. Just live together.

GL: Would focusing on family values help improve our judicial system and reduce crime?
Popper: Absolutely. It would improve everything.

GL: The day our judges set an example — being role models — and make us look up to the individual judge, it will be the first day that our justice system will truly work. It will be the first day that crime will start going down. And keep going down.
Popper: I think I have fulfilled what you said. At least I think I have.

GL: Do you think it's time for a new Miami-Dade County courthouse building?
Popper: When I went on the bench in the '60s they said you'll be here a year and we will have a new courthouse. That was 27 years ago. I haven't seen a new courthouse yet. It is way past time.

GL: If we lose respect for the judge …
Popper: Let's face it, we lost it. The public lost it.

GL: Does that mean the beginning of the end?
Popper: I don't think so. I think more so than change the court, we need to educate the people. We have to get the people to understand what the legal system is. They'll then appreciate the system of the court no matter who is in there. We have to change a bunch of things to make it better. You have to change the people to understand what is working for them, what is upholding the laws. Then it will work again. It's not the beginning of the end.
People are more interested if Michael Jackson is making twenty million dollars this year than how the court can help them.
They need to face reality and know what's going on. They must get involved. Go to the legislature and help create laws that the courts can protect instead of implementing laws they don't like. The court is just a catalyst. How do you change the laws? You go back to the legislature.

GL: What you are saying is we have to overcome apathy and get involved in politics.
Popper: That's right.

GL: But nobody has time.
Popper: Then they have to accept what they get.

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Today's juveniles are smart enough to know they can do anything they want and not be tried as an adult. And they walk out. That's it.

What makes the ideal judge? Demeanor. Fairness. Common sense.

Would focusing on family values help improve our judicial system and reduce crime? Absolutely. It would improve everything.

What you are saying is we have to overcome apathy and get involved in politics. That's right.

A family to be proud of. From left to right: seated are son David, Judge Popper and wife Joanne, son Bruce; standing are David's wife Connie, daughter Jodi, son Rick, Bruce's wife Laura.

Message
to Daddy:
His little arms
crept around my neck
and then
I heard him say
four simple words
I shan't forget
four words
that made me pray.
They turned a mirror
on my soul
on secrets
no one knew.
They startled me,
I hear them yet;
he said,
"I'll be like you."